@celegorma, this is true and I neglected to acknowledge as much, but Grosskreutz might still have been needed to check the runs of Lahm.
Also, the better countermove to Robben's all-field movement would have been to drop the defensive line. Another DM wouldn't have done much for the Robben runs in behind, not even to pressure the passer, as Bayern were working from deep and the wings to play balls in behind.
@LessBlues, The problem is, Robben no longer stays on the wing in the 2nd half. Robben played as a second striker and made runs between the centre backs. Muller went wide. This was a change Heynkes made brilliantly because Dortmund played a high line. After the penalty Dortmund should have brought on another DM and play for a draw.
@LessBlues, I know, since he manages reactively, he rarely goes for substitutions if there isn't anything big going on in the match. But reactivity should include changing the tide of the game when the team falls out of control. Plus, playing for PKs is a very random (or hopeful) way of doing things in a match like this. I agree that he might be waiting for ET to get Şahin in the match. I can't say for sure, but at a later point, the team seemed to got into a position where they were holding out for ET.
@Yulva, It's probably right that introducing Sahin would have made Dortmund more fluid, but I always return to the point that Klopp was managing reactively, probably hoping for PKs, and the threat in this match was Ribery and Robben, and the best defensive wingers at Klopps's disposal were Grosskreutz and Kuba. And I don't think he was wrong. The second goal occurred outside the flow of the match and was just a good individual effort.
@LessBlues: Thanks, I see what you mean. I would imagine Reus wouldn't be as effective on filling the flank as Kuba is, although I think he does his job on that department too. There would also be the possibility of him exploiting the forward movement of Alaba, as he does when he plays alongside Götze. Plus, Şahin as a deep playmaker and Gündoğan at #10 could have meant more creativity going forward.
I do agree with you on the part that Klopp possibly thought of Kuba and Groskreutz as useful for his planned reactivity . And I think it did work up to some point. What I also think however is that the inclusion of Şahin, when things weren't going well for Dortmund when they started to fail on creating at the last 30 or so minutes, would have changed the shape of the team toward a more fluid and threatening side.
Nice response, @Yulva. I guess my fear for with your suggested lineup is Reus would shirk his defensive duties and Bayern would exploit that by overloading that side (as they kind of did for the first goal). Kuba, though, was dutifully tracking Alaba and chipping in defensively. I guess this just underlines Klopp's reactive tactics.
Flipside is Alaba was perhaps the most vulnerable of Munich's defenders and Reus might have been able to create something there. In fact, I think Reus drifted out right to cross for Kuba's opportunity (?)
@LessBlues: There are a lot of ways to bring in Şahin when the team needs more creativity going forward or having a say in the control of the game. Grosskreutz was doing a good job defensively, so I can understand the reluctance to sub him out. Kuba on the other hand could be replaced with Reus on the right flank with Gündoğan taking the #10 and Şahin taking his place. That is to say, a clockwise shift to the right starting with Şahin as a deep playmaker. Reus would most likely have moments of drifting inside, creating space for Pisczek.
My point is, they needed more technical superiority to get the ball to the attacking third, and when they managed the move the ball there, Kuba and Groskreutz were insufficient to create a real threat.
@Yulva Seemed like Grosskreutz' brief was to track and limit Lahm, which he did well. Kuba did not play great, but bring Sahin in for him? Then they have no width.
The substitutions on the Dortmund side (especailly Şahin's entry) should have came 25 minutes earlier than they did. Kuba and Groskreutz were utterly useless as they were so many times this season. I know that Klopp is often reluctant to change the players on the pitch, but he should have done so in this one.
And this match, imho, once again showed that Hummels is an overrated player.
my guess:
if 90min:
Dortmund 1 goal maximum,
Bayern at least 1 goal
if extra time:
Bayern 2 goals,
Dortmund 1 goal - maximum 2 goals
if penalty shootout:
Bayern will win, Arjen Robben and Schweinsteiger will score
:D
I think they should use Gundogan in the advanced role, and Reus wide. I don't think Grosskreuts has enough qualities to be a danger to the bavarians. Nuri Sahin should partner Bender in the defensive role.
Dear team. Dear Bayern. Last year you lost. We all were depressed.It was the first time I ever wrote an internet comment. It read: Sometimes a big dream must die to make an even bigger one come true. You took those hard blows, stood up once more, regrouped and attacked boldly. You dared. You emerged as a new and much stronger team. More spirited than ever you played an amazing season and inspired Europe. Tommorrow evening you once more reach for this big dream. Go out and get it! Catch that dream and make it real! What ever will be, thank you for everything you did for us! Maybe all this happens once in a lifetime. Our hearts will be with you!
I have to say that Dortmund were very poor when Götze didn't play this season.
I do think that playing Şahin, who I think has earned his place by now, as one of the midfield duos alongside Bender and slipping Gündoğan to no.10 would be a better choice than playing Großkreutz on the left flank. But Klopp has used Şahin in only one of the Champions League games yet so I doubt he'll use him in this one.
Bayern will dominate this game from the beginning and probably score first half. This season Bayern had shown that they are stronger than Borussia. Not only Borussia, with their playing style and compactness, now they are stronger than any team in Europe.
dortmund win against strong real madrid. bayern munich win agains weak barcelona. there will be more dortmunder fans in the stadion. dortmund should win the cl trophy bayern become gotze and hoeneß can look the game from prison
ribery red!
странно, что не дали голевой пас Рибери.
Ribery should received assist for Robben winning goal???
@celegorma, this is true and I neglected to acknowledge as much, but Grosskreutz might still have been needed to check the runs of Lahm. Also, the better countermove to Robben's all-field movement would have been to drop the defensive line. Another DM wouldn't have done much for the Robben runs in behind, not even to pressure the passer, as Bayern were working from deep and the wings to play balls in behind.
@LessBlues, The problem is, Robben no longer stays on the wing in the 2nd half. Robben played as a second striker and made runs between the centre backs. Muller went wide. This was a change Heynkes made brilliantly because Dortmund played a high line. After the penalty Dortmund should have brought on another DM and play for a draw.
impressive martinez
@LessBlues, I know, since he manages reactively, he rarely goes for substitutions if there isn't anything big going on in the match. But reactivity should include changing the tide of the game when the team falls out of control. Plus, playing for PKs is a very random (or hopeful) way of doing things in a match like this. I agree that he might be waiting for ET to get Şahin in the match. I can't say for sure, but at a later point, the team seemed to got into a position where they were holding out for ET.
Although do you play for PKs against Neuer? Eh, maybe you're the right one here. Perhaps he was waiting for ET to introduce Sahin.
@Yulva, It's probably right that introducing Sahin would have made Dortmund more fluid, but I always return to the point that Klopp was managing reactively, probably hoping for PKs, and the threat in this match was Ribery and Robben, and the best defensive wingers at Klopps's disposal were Grosskreutz and Kuba. And I don't think he was wrong. The second goal occurred outside the flow of the match and was just a good individual effort.
Neuer should have "Man of the match" The best by far!
@LessBlues: Thanks, I see what you mean. I would imagine Reus wouldn't be as effective on filling the flank as Kuba is, although I think he does his job on that department too. There would also be the possibility of him exploiting the forward movement of Alaba, as he does when he plays alongside Götze. Plus, Şahin as a deep playmaker and Gündoğan at #10 could have meant more creativity going forward. I do agree with you on the part that Klopp possibly thought of Kuba and Groskreutz as useful for his planned reactivity . And I think it did work up to some point. What I also think however is that the inclusion of Şahin, when things weren't going well for Dortmund when they started to fail on creating at the last 30 or so minutes, would have changed the shape of the team toward a more fluid and threatening side.
Nice response, @Yulva. I guess my fear for with your suggested lineup is Reus would shirk his defensive duties and Bayern would exploit that by overloading that side (as they kind of did for the first goal). Kuba, though, was dutifully tracking Alaba and chipping in defensively. I guess this just underlines Klopp's reactive tactics. Flipside is Alaba was perhaps the most vulnerable of Munich's defenders and Reus might have been able to create something there. In fact, I think Reus drifted out right to cross for Kuba's opportunity (?)
Weidenfeller should have "Man of the match" The best by far!
@LessBlues: There are a lot of ways to bring in Şahin when the team needs more creativity going forward or having a say in the control of the game. Grosskreutz was doing a good job defensively, so I can understand the reluctance to sub him out. Kuba on the other hand could be replaced with Reus on the right flank with Gündoğan taking the #10 and Şahin taking his place. That is to say, a clockwise shift to the right starting with Şahin as a deep playmaker. Reus would most likely have moments of drifting inside, creating space for Pisczek. My point is, they needed more technical superiority to get the ball to the attacking third, and when they managed the move the ball there, Kuba and Groskreutz were insufficient to create a real threat.
Both Dortmund and Bayern deserved to reach the final tonight - a really great game :)
Echte Liebe Dortmund, we played our game.
@Yulva Seemed like Grosskreutz' brief was to track and limit Lahm, which he did well. Kuba did not play great, but bring Sahin in for him? Then they have no width.
Congratulation Bayern for Winning Champions League !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sad that Dortmund didn't get to lift that trophy.
The substitutions on the Dortmund side (especailly Şahin's entry) should have came 25 minutes earlier than they did. Kuba and Groskreutz were utterly useless as they were so many times this season. I know that Klopp is often reluctant to change the players on the pitch, but he should have done so in this one. And this match, imho, once again showed that Hummels is an overrated player.
Muller was as bad as Robben was good.
Bayern were superior.
who disliked my prediction? (Robben scored) LoL!
ROBBEN??? REALLY??? ROBBEN?????????
Some uggly moments tainting a great final
Super Neuer lol
Robben is a joke and Hummels is horrible.
Its hard to see anything but a win for bayern, but I said the same thing last year.
Borussia 4-2 Bayern
Dortmund 1-0 Bayern for sure
my guess: if 90min: Dortmund 1 goal maximum, Bayern at least 1 goal if extra time: Bayern 2 goals, Dortmund 1 goal - maximum 2 goals if penalty shootout: Bayern will win, Arjen Robben and Schweinsteiger will score :D
Tight game - I believe this game will require Extra Time... Could go either way. I would rather not see penalties this year!
Edvard, definitely I agree with you. I suppose Borussia play with Gundogan as an offender mid.
I think they should use Gundogan in the advanced role, and Reus wide. I don't think Grosskreuts has enough qualities to be a danger to the bavarians. Nuri Sahin should partner Bender in the defensive role.
0-3
Without Gotze it will be hard to win, but maybe Lewandowski remember how to score a hat-trick against Bayern..
1-3 Bayern
My prediction: 1-2
10-0 for Borussia Dortmund LoL :))
certo 1:2 !
i'm for BVB but actually i know bayern will win.
Come on BVB!
Dear team. Dear Bayern. Last year you lost. We all were depressed.It was the first time I ever wrote an internet comment. It read: Sometimes a big dream must die to make an even bigger one come true. You took those hard blows, stood up once more, regrouped and attacked boldly. You dared. You emerged as a new and much stronger team. More spirited than ever you played an amazing season and inspired Europe. Tommorrow evening you once more reach for this big dream. Go out and get it! Catch that dream and make it real! What ever will be, thank you for everything you did for us! Maybe all this happens once in a lifetime. Our hearts will be with you!
5-0 for bayern!!
5-0 for Borussia Dortmund :))
I have to say that Dortmund were very poor when Götze didn't play this season. I do think that playing Şahin, who I think has earned his place by now, as one of the midfield duos alongside Bender and slipping Gündoğan to no.10 would be a better choice than playing Großkreutz on the left flank. But Klopp has used Şahin in only one of the Champions League games yet so I doubt he'll use him in this one.
Both sides know each other very well and having played each other 4 times this season I can see extra time / penalties.
Bayern will dominate this game from the beginning and probably score first half. This season Bayern had shown that they are stronger than Borussia. Not only Borussia, with their playing style and compactness, now they are stronger than any team in Europe.
Big chances to see this final reach extra time at least. (1-1)
@Fabo I FUCKING HATE YOU, STOP SPAMMING!
gotze out...what a surprise
Watch Borussia Dortmund shock everyone and win this.
3-1 for Bayern !
2-1 x2 Lewandowski!
1-3
Echte Liebe!! 10 days left!
@redpanda im no dortmund fan. and please, this is an german final, stop embarassing yourself, everyone know you are not the smartest.
What a boring game.
wawa please, this is an english speaking site, stop embarassing yourself, everyone knows dortmund fans are not the smartest ...
dortmund win against strong real madrid. bayern munich win agains weak barcelona. there will be more dortmunder fans in the stadion. dortmund should win the cl trophy bayern become gotze and hoeneß can look the game from prison